Plato Grogias

1. Canons of Rhetoric: Invention- Dialectic
1) Dr. Pullman's notes/facts/ Summary of some key concepts:
a) Socrates taught people how to question the given. The Athenians self-righteously
condemned him for corrupting the youth. No one who wants to maintain control can encourage critical thinking, and the best way to keep people from thinking is to teach obedience to tradition, received wisdom, the given, and the values implicit in the standard definitions.

(My perspective of reasons why it is crucial:
Socrates exerted a far-reaching impact on the later philosophers. He was a brave man and dared to tell the people in ancient Greece to think and challenge independently with the sacrifice of his own life. American philosopher Ralph Waldo Emerson's idea about being a non-conformist might be traced back to Socrates. He criticized the people of his time for abandoning their own minds and their own wills for the sake of conformity and consistency. They tried to fit in with the rest of the world even though it's at odds with their beliefs and their identities. Therefore, it's best to be a non-conformist - to do your own thing, not worrying about what other people think Nowadays, we can even learn a lesson and should not blindly obey what others especially the authorities or the elderly tell us to do without using our own wisdom and judgement. In China, if the mother-in-law tells his son's wife that the most important thing for her is to raise more babies for the family, she should not conform to the biased opinion towards the woman's value in family and believe in her own talents in career and seek her own personal growth instead of being a baby machine.)

b) Dialectic is a real time discussion by means of question and answer where two people try to discover the validity of a statement, or the meaning of a word, or the value of a concept, or what one or the other or both mean by a given statement to construct a stable and accurate world view. Techniques include using analogies to discover similarities, and contrasts to discover differences in order to separate the properties and the attributes from accidents and errors or false similarities. and thus arrive at the essential definitions of the key terms.

c) Notes on Gorgias and Dialectic
Principles:
Dialectic is not about winning but about learning.
The purpose of dialectic is to correct opinions.
The proper spirit is mutual self discovery, a willingness to be corrected and a desire to help the other person overcome the errors in their thinking.

Personal Characteristics or Attitudes Required:
• be prepared to change your mind
• be patient --don't jump to conclusions, don't anticipate.
• be candid -- don't strategize, evade, equivocate, distract, or deflect

(My perspective of reasons why it is crucial:
Dialectic can help us and the people around us to have better spiritual growth. For example, if we talk with our friends about some troubles in our daily lives. At first, we ask them about their problems and show some empathy to them. But more importantly, we should help our friends to grow by finding our friends' faults in mentality or behaviors and inspire them to correct their own mistakes by questioning them and letting them think for themselves. Otherwise, telling them what to do directly is too subjective and ineffective. Through these conversations, we can truly explore ourselves and the other persons' inner world.)

3) My question:
When did dialectic first appear in history?

2. Plato's Gorgias
1) Facts/ Summary of some key concepts:
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato)
a) Plato (c.428– c.347 BC) was an ancient Greek philosopher born in Athens
during the Classical period. In Athens, Plato founded the Academy, a philosophical school where he taught the philosophical doctrines that would later become known as Platonism. Along with his teacher, Socrates, and student Aristotle, Plato is a central figure in the history of philosophy. Unlike the work of nearly all of his contemporaries, Plato's entire body of work is believed to have survived intact for over 2,400 years. In modern times, Alfred North Whitehead famously said: "The safest general characterization of the European philosophical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato.

Gorgias is a Socratic dialogue written by Plato around 380 BC. The dialogue depicts a conversation between Socrates and a small group of sophists (and other guests) at a dinner gathering. Socrates debates with the sophist seeking the true definition of rhetoric, attempting to pinpoint the essence of rhetoric and unveil the flaws of the sophistic oratory popular in Athens at the time. The art of persuasion was widely considered necessary for political and legal advantage in classical Athens, and rhetoricians promoted themselves as teachers of this fundamental skill. Some, like Gorgias, were foreigners attracted to Athens because of its reputation for intellectual and cultural sophistication. Socrates suggests that he is one of the few Athenians to practice true politics.

b) Socrates was a Greek philosopher from Athens who is credited as the founder
of Western philosophy and among the first moral philosophers of the ethical tradition of thought. In 399 BC, he was accused of impiety and corrupting the youth. After a trial that lasted a day, he was sentenced to death. He spent his last day in prison, refusing offers to help him escape. Plato's dialogues are among the most comprehensive accounts of Socrates to survive from antiquity.

c) Polus was a pupil of the famous orator Gorgias, and a teacher of oratory from the city of
Acragas, Sicily.

d) Callicles is depicted as a young student of the sophist Gorgias. In the dialogue named
for his teacher, Callicles argues the position of an oligarchic amoralist, stating that it is natural and just for the strong to dominate the weak and that it is unfair for the weak to resist such oppression by establishing laws to limit the power of the strong. He asserts that the institutions and moral code of his time were not established by gods but instead by humans who naturally were looking after their own interests. He also shows hedonistic views with respect to how a superior human should live his life.

2) Noteworthy quotations in Gorgias:
a) In the first section (447a-461b), Gorgias and Socrates had conversations about making speech.
In the beginning, Socrates asked Gorgias what they're supposed to call him. Gorgias claimed to be an expert in the craft of oratory and to be able to make someone else an orator, too. (449a)
Then Gorgias made definitions of oratory.Firstly, he said that "oratory is a craft depending entirely on speeches."(450e). Secondly, he told Socrates the greatest of human concerns and the best were the ones that these speeches used by oratory were concerned with.(451d) Thirdly, Gorgias thought that oratory was a producer of persuasion(453a) and the source of freedom for mankind, and at the same time, it is for each person the source of rule over others in one's own city(452e). he believed that if you had the ability to speak and to persuade the crowds, you could have the doctor, the physical trainer, and the financial expert for your slaves. They could become the ones to make money for somebody else instead of themselves if you could persuade them.

(My viewpoint:
I disagree with Gorgias' opinion that oratory is a craft depending entirely on
speeches. To make powerful and effective speeches in public, the orator needs to do some physical work. For example, before making the speech, they need to travel around and do some promotional activities such as handing out some "flyers" or visiting others' homes to attract some potential audiences to gather when they deliver their speech. During making the speech, they may need to stand for long hours or even move around to get more eye contact or interaction with the audience. Using loud voices and vivid body language coupled with hand gestures is physically demanding for a long period. I think teachers sometimes use a kind of oratory in class to persuade their students and it is obvious that teaching is a job combining language and physical labor. It's very tiring and physically challenging to make speeches in front of large crowds of students.)


Socrates, firstly, posited two types of persuasion, one providing conviction without knowledge, the other providing knowledge. (454e) Secondly, Socrates said" Oratory is a producer of conviction-persuasion and not of teaching-persuasion concerning what's just and unjust. So an orator is not a teacher of law courts and other gatherings about things that are just and unjust? either, but merely a persuader, for I don't suppose that he could teach such a large gathering about matters so important in a short time." (455a) Thirdly, Socrates mentioned that "orator is incapable of using oratory unjustly and of being willing to do what's unjust".

(My viewpoint:
I doubted that the "orator is incapable of using oratory unjustly and of being willing to do what's unjust" as mentioned by Socrates. For example, Adolf Hitler was one of the world's most influential orators and created the largest German political party and slaughtered as many as 21 million people during his brutal 12-year-long Third Reich. In more than 5,000 persuasive speeches, Nazi leader Adolf Hitler bewitched his audiences with oratory. (https://www.businessinsider.in/why-hitler-was-such-a-successful-orator/articleshow/47273538.cms)
His speech contained strong, hateful language, unjust hostility, and modern racism towards Jews. Through his speeches, he taught the Nazis it was just to exterminate the Jews and his crazy oratory led to the holocaust to some extent in a short time.)

b) In the second section, it was the conversations mainly between Socrates and
Polus. Polus, as a student of Gorgias, blamed Socrates for leading Gorgias to be confused about oratory and on to inconsistency crept into his statements and said "To lead your arguments to such an outcome is a sign of great rudeness." Then Polus asked Gorgias what oratory is (461c-462b)
Socrates said oratory is not a craft at all but for producing a certain gratification and pleasure. .(462c) Socrates claimed that "oratory is flattery, a part of some business that isn't admirable at all."?463a-463c?He explained "I call this flattery and shameful because it guesses at what's pleasant with no consideration for what's best. And I say that it isn't a craft, but a knack because it has no account of the nature of whatever things it applies by which it applies them so that it's unable to state the cause of each thing. And I refuse to call anything that lacks such an account a craft?"(465a)
Nonetheless, Polus said that "good orators have the greatest power in the cities" as they, like tyrants, put to death anyone they want, confiscate the property of anyone they see fit, and banish them from their cities?"
Socrates refuted Plus by saying that "both orators and tyrants have the least power in their cities". It is because " it's not good if a person does whatever he sees most fit to do when he lacks intelligence".

(My viewpoint:
Socrates believed that power is good only if he who has it has the capacity to do good. But some orators and tyrants cannot do good as they have no clue about what is good and adhere to nature. Only the one with intelligence and capacity can do good.)


Polus and Socrates also debated about whether doing what's unjust or suffering what's unjust is the greatest of evils. Polus initially thought that suffering what's unjust was a greater one. However, Socrates argued that doing what's unjust is a greater evil. "If it had to be one or the other, I would choose suffering over doing what's unjust."

(My viewpoint:
I think Socrates was a person of kind heart and justice as he was reluctant to do sth. unfair to others and more willing to bear being treated badly. I can understand this because hurting others makes me feel more painful than being hurt by others because of my moral standards. To do sth, unjust to others especially my students like giving the outperformers low scores is a very tormenting experience. But to suffer some inequalities like not getting a promotion even with better work performance than my colleagues may be more bearable than causing others to experience inequality as I would not like to be the evil guy and will not have the sense of guilt. However, those who have a bad nature? they will probably choose to do sth. unjust instead of suffering over doing what's unjust.)


c) In the third section, it was mainly conversations about Socrates and Callicles.
Callicles refuted Socrates as he told Socrates "If a person makes a statement in terms of law, you slyly question him in terms of nature; if he makes it in terms of nature, you question him in terms of law". (483a) He also claims that "nature shows that both among the other animals and in whole cities and cities of men, justice is that the superior rule the inferior and have a greater share than they." (483d)

(My perspective of reasons why it is crucial:
Callicles' idea about justice in the human's world and animal world might have influenced later biologists and scholars in eugenics. For instance, survival of the fittest, a term made famous in the fifth edition of On the Origin of Species by British naturalist Charles Darwin, which suggested that organisms best adjusted to their environment are the most successful in surviving and reproducing. This is very similar to Callicles' idea that the superior lives better than the inferior. In addition, the logic of survival of the fittest and natural selection was thought to be transferable to humanity. Within the context of the ascendancy of Victorian England (1820–1914), a perspective arose that the more intelligent would rule the less intelligent, or those who were less fit. To realize this perspective, Darwin's cousin, British scientist Francis Galton, who coined the term eugenics (derived from the Greek for "well-born"), established the Eugenics Education Society of London in 1907. Galton, along with many others among the educated classes, hoped to actively discourage the overbreeding of the less fit and preserve what was best in Victorian society. (https://www.britannica.com/science/survival-of-the-fittest)
Callicles' idea reveals the truth of fierce competition between animals and the human's world and encourages humans to be more competitive and raise better offspring. )


Socrates said that to be disciplined is better for the soul and the body than lack of discipline. (505a-b) He claimed that "a person who wants to be happy must evidently pursue and practice self-control." "Wise men claim that partnership and friendship, orderliness, self-control, and justice hold together heaven and earth? and gods and men, and that is why they call this universe a world order, and not an undisciplined world-disorder.) It is totally wrong to act like tyrants to misuse power, rob others of property, and kill others. What's more, Socrates considered the issue of the death. "Death is nothing but the separation of two things from each other, the soul and the body." The soul would meet the judge and Socrates hoped that "I'll reveal to the judge a soul that's as healthy as it can be".

(My perspective of reasons why it is crucial:
There is no wonder Socrates was one of the most intelligent philosophers in Ancient Greece. Socrate's emphasis on self-control can instruct ancient and today's people at home and abroad. He argued that self-discipline was the best way to control bodily desires, like the strong appetites for food, drink, and sex. He believed that good habits provide good health and promote the care of the soul. Nowadays, people cannot resist the temptations of drugs and alcohol and their minds suffer a lot from the detrimental influence. In 2021, findings by the National Center for Drug Abuse Statistics show out of the 280 million aged 12 and older, 31.9 million are drug users. (https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/eng/wjdt_665385/2649_665393/202302/t20230209_11022554.html)
The amount taken determines the effect. A small amount acts as a stimulant but a larger amount of poisons can kill. Drugs can distort the user's perception of what is happening around him or her and affect the mind permanently by blurring memory and causing blank spots. If they can have high level of self-control about physical desires like Socrates, their lives will not be ruined.
Socrates' instruction also has important meaning to the rulers. He said the rulers should not rob the public of their property and kill the people as they wish. Emperor Yang of Sui was the second emperor of the Sui dynasty of China. He was one of the worst tyrants in Chinese history and that was the reason for the Sui dynasty's relatively short rule. His failed campaigns against Goguryeo and the conscriptions levied to man them, coupled with increased taxation to finance these wars, and civil unrest as a result of this taxation, ultimately led to the downfall of the dynasty. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Yang_of_Sui)
As the ruler, they should learn Socrates' opinions about politics and care about the people's well-being otherwise people will overthrow the evil ruler.)